I sued for $2,500 (my small claims max) on October 24, 2001.

Defendant:

Peter McCorkell (agent for service of process)
Fair, Isaac and Company, Incorporated
200 Smith Ranch Road
San Rafael, CA 94903

"Fair, Isaac refuses to disclose WHICH credit report data they use to calculate my credit scores. Fair, Isaac failed to respond to my written inquiry sent via planetfeedback.com. My credit scores are causing declines for new credit and limit increases."

We'll see what happens ...

Judge John Taylor saw me file, if looks could kill, I'd be dead now!

My Small Claims suit against Experian relates directly to this Fair Isaac complaint.

Either Fair Isaac does NOT have the credit report data they CLAIM to be utilizing in their credit score calculations

-- or --

Experian isn't providing all data they provide to Fair Isaac on the credit reports they provide to consumers.

MY Experian credit report does not contain account types (consumer finance company, bank) and inquiry coding (auto, mortgage.)

It's really a shame that one has to file a law suit to get answers, but once again, it looks like it works.

I got a lot of info from Barry, and I'll post some updates in the respective topics. He promised to send me a letter that I can take to court as evidence against Experian.

He also promised to look at the Planetfeedback.com letters, he wasn't aware of those at all.

After talking to Barry for a while, Fair Isaac doesn't seem so bad. I could live with credit scoring, if we could arrange for the following:

1) Credit scores based on ACCURATE and COMPLETE credit data and complete consumer report disclosures.

2) We know exactly what goes into scores and have a way to verify that the scoring software is working correctly. Fair Isaac should accept reports with "odd" scores so that bugs get fixed.

3) Fair Isaac offers to provide written statements to be submitted to court about the impact of INCORRECTLY reported accounts (I'd even pay $10 or $20).

Chances are that most judges know very little about scores. I'm especially sick of collection agencies redating accounts and reporting as open and delinquent. Most people with credit problems don't have the money to go to "real" court and subpoena Fair Isaac expert witnesses.

Fair Isaac should be able to run a report and get the score with the reported date, and the CORRECT date. That would be the best proof of damages I can think of.

Even a simple Fair Isaac brochure detailing the impact of INCORRECT credit reporting would help a LOT. Put some common samples in there, accounts as reported on credit reports, etc.

4) Every creditor has to insert a brochure on credit scoring with the bills a couple of times a year and EVERY credit application and approval/denial notice contains a URL and toll-free number for credit scoring info.

Of course you can't expect Fair Isaac and creditors to do that just to waste their profits. It'll take legislation and massive law suits.

Anyway, getting COMPLETE credit reports is a first step. I'll dismiss the law suit as soon as I got the Fair Isaac letter.

I will SCAN and upoad the Fair Isaac letter and if MANY people sue the bureaus for complete credit reports, maybe we'll actually get them.

On November 14, 2001 the answer was filed with the court.

"Prior to receipt of this Small Claims action, Fair, Isaac's help line for credit bureaus scores had not received Plaintiff's request for this information via Planetfeedback.com or otherwise. Subject to limitations on the disclosure of proprietary information, Fair, Isaac makes every reasonable effort to provide information to consumers about their credit scoring. This is done through Fair, Isaac's website as well as in responses to direct inquiries from consumers like Plaintiff. Fair, Isaac's help line personnel are in contact with Plaintiff now and are endeavoring to provide her with the requested information and to answer her other questions.

Date: 11/12/01"

signed by Irene D. Gilbert, Vice President

Well good - but where's my letter?

And, it's odd that they didn't get the Planetfeedback.com letter. How about the other people that mailed questions through Planetfeedback.com?

Did anyone else get a response?

And, why didn't they put the # for the Fair, Isaac help line in the answer. What is it?

The scanned Small Claims form with the Fair Isaac Answer. (56 kb)

This is the copy Fair Isaac sent to me, the "original" pink copy has the "Nov 14 2001 Filed" Kingman/Cerbat Justice Court stamp.

Fair, Isaac actually answered on the Small Claims form, unlike TU and Experian. And they even read my complaint prior to responding.

I was wondering today why Fair, Isaac isn't actively working on increasing credit reporting accuracy.

Since their scores are supposed to PREDICT defaults, wouldn't they be able to predict a lot better if credit reports weren't so filled with mistakes?

Is it because they do business with the bureaus?

Or does credit data accuracy not matter because the credit scores don't predict, but CAUSE the defaults?

I got the Fair Isaac letter - it's LONG. Haven't had time to really read it, but it's what I wanted for Experian.

I'll scan it ASAP, and I'll dismiss the complaint.

Here is the scanned letter from Fair Isaac, dated November 19, 2001:


Page 1 (73 kb)

Page 2 (45 kb)

Page 3 (24 kb)

I haven't had a chance to read through the Fair, Isaac letter since I typed it -- please post any typos!

--------------------------------------
November 19, 2001

Christine Baker
(address deleted)

Dear Ms. Baker:

This letter supplements Fair, Isaac and Company, Inc.'s ("Fair, Isaac") answer to the claim you filed against Fair, Isaac in the Justice Court of Mohave County, AZ, Small Claims Division. We hope that this letter will answer the concerns you raised in your claim, and later in your conversation with our helpline personnel, by explaining some details of how our models capture data in your credit profile. However, as you will see below, we do not have enough information to respond fully to the issues you raised in your October 4 letter to planetfeedback.com.

1) Background on Fair, Isaac credit bureau scores

Fair, Isaac is the developer of the most widely used credit scoring models. Similar, but not identical, models are installed at each of the three major credit bureaus: Equifax, Trans Union, and Experian. The Fair, Isaac credit bureau risk scores, often called FICO scores, are known as BEACON score at Equifax, EMPIRICA score at Trans Union, and the Experian/Fair, Isaac Model. Each model assigns a numeric score to the particular underlying data available at the bureau at the moment on the given individual whose score is requested.

Fair, Isaac does not calculate or deliver the FICO scores. They are calculated at the credit bureau(s) where a FICO score was requested, and are provided by that credit bureau. Fair, Isaac does not have direct access to consumer credit information at these bureaus and, therefore, does not have the ability to make any changes to the underlying data in any given consumer's file, or to change a consumer's credit scores. The consumer must report the alleged inaccuracy or incompleteness to each pertinent credit bureau/consumer reporting agency. Once the underlying data that fuels the score is changed, the score will usually change as well.

The scores are not identical across bureaus. Due to differences in the underlying data, at a given point in time a consumer may get a slightly different credit score at each bureau. The scores are also dynamic; that is, they will change over time as the underlying information is updated and/or ages.

Each scoring model also calculates for that FICO score those factors where the consumer's particular facts, available at the time at that bureau, caused the consumer's score to be less than optimal. These factors are provided with the score as the reasons underlying the score, and are listed in descending order of importance. Such credit bureau score factors are often cited by lenders when complying with their legal obligation to provide the reasons for declining a loan application.

2. Specific issues you raised
In your filing in the Small Claims Division you allege that Fair, Isaac will not disclose which credit report data we use to calculate your scores, and that we failed to respond to your written inquiry "sent via planetfeedback.com." Prior to receipt of the Small Claims Action, Fair, Isaac's helpline for credit bureau scores had not received any written inquiries from you via planetfeedback.com. After we received from the Small Claims Division the Action you filed with them, our Mr. Barry Paperno of our helpline called you, and we also downloaded your letter to us from the planetfeedback.com web site.

a. Dates
In the letter you posted at planetfeedback.com you questioned why your collection item was listed as of 3/1997 at Experian, whereas you assert the is is a 1995 paid $500 collection item." If you believe that the collection item is being reported inaccurately in any way, then you should investigate the matter with Experian and the specific lender and/or collection agency that reported the item. If, on the other hand, you would like us to help you understand how this item affected your score, then you would need to provide us with additional information, preferably the actual Experian credit profile that was scored. For example, you do not state whether the collection item reported as of 3/97 is a third party collection agency item, which would be reported on the date the collection agency first reported it, or whether it is the underlying credit obligation, which would be reported by the lender as opened at an earlier date and written off, or sent to the collection agency, at a later date.

In the phone discussion with Mr. Paperno, you asked which dates are captured by the Fair, Isaac models with respect to delinquencies and other derogatory items. Dates have a different naming convention at each of the three credit bureaus where FICO scores are available, and the date used by a model depends on the particular type of information being scored. All dates used are available to the consumer, because they are displayed on the pertinent underlying consumer disclosure that a consumer may obtain from the bureau. For typical delinquencies, Fair, Isaac models look at the date the delinquency was reported by the lender. When an account is written off as a loss by the lender, such as when it is charged off or sent to collection, the models use the date the account is written off as a loss. When viewing a collection item, the models look at the date the collection account was opened.

b. Types of accounts or companies that furnish information
When Mr. Paperno contacted you, you raised a new question--asking how the models capture the type of company for a given account or inquiry. For each trade line and inquiry listed, the credit bureaus have the information on the type of lender (e.g., whether it is a finance company, bankcard lender, auto or mortgage lender, etc.) embedded in the subscriber codes that are assigned to each account on the consumer's credit profile. Designating the type of trade line or company is a credit bureau function. If you are not sure which of your accounts or inquiries is designated to a finance company or auto lender, you will need to contact the credit bureau(s). Fair, Isaac does not control what information is displayed on the credit profile that fuels the score.

3. Conclusion
We hope this letter answers your concerns. You may contact our helpline or Mr. Paperno again, at (800) 777-2066, if you have further questions.



Sincerely

Thomas J. Quinn
Director, Client Support

Encl: Baker letter posted at planetfeedback.com

cc: Barry Paperno, Fair, Isaac

The best thing about this letter is that I understand the meaning of every word, and, unlike TU and Experian, Fair Isaac actually read my complaint and made a sincere effort to respond.

These days, that goes a long way.

I already knew everything in this letter, but I now have a few things in writing from Fair, Isaac.

With respect to the dates for collections, I agree with Fair, Isaac that they should be looking at the actual bureau report - I'd like to get into a lot more detail on the dates.

My planetfeedback.com letter:

6.5 year old PAID $500 collection = lower scores than Ch. 7 discharge 2 years ago

I hope that Fair, Isaac's offer to review accounts or reports with strange scores will result in much less time wasted by people speculating which data or date "fuels" the scores.

And I am wondering why Fair, Isaac didn't respond to the OTHER Planetfeedback.com letters. Hope I don't have to sue for every answer, just faxed the dismissal to the court.

While the phone number for the helpline is in the letter, I'm still looking for their fax # - will try to call them tomorrow.

2. b. "Types of accounts or companies that furnish information" is exactly what I wanted.

"For each trade line and inquiry listed, the credit bureaus have the information on the type of lender (e.g., whether it is a finance company, bankcard lender, auto or mortgage lender, etc.) embedded in the subscriber codes that are assigned to each account on the consumer's credit profile. Designating the type of trade line or company is a credit bureau function. If you are not sure which of your accounts or inquiries is designated to a finance company or auto lender, you will need to contact the credit bureau(s)."

THAT's the data the bureaus are NOT disclosing to consumers.

Guess it's time for another fax to Experian.

My email to Barry at Fair, Isaac:

Hi Barry,

Last night I finally transcribed the letter from Thomas Quinn for the forum and I dismissed the law suit. Only to regret that now.

1) That "consumer help line" is just a RECORDING!

2) I've wasted even MORE time going to your web site, found NOTHING on account types or inquiry deduplication. Since I'm on a slow land line and don't have all day, could you PLEASE send me the URLs where Fair Isaac states that certain types of accounts will LOWER the credit scores, and that INCORRECT coding of inquiries will also LOWER scores as they won't be deduplicated for your scores.

Obviously, Experian is going to tell the judge that this hidden data is IRRELEVANT to consumers, I need to have DOCUMENTATION to prove them wrong.

3) WHY didn't I get a response to my other planetfeedback.com letters? Do I have to SUE for every answer?

4) WHICH address should planetfeedback.com be using so that people WILL get a response? I'll have them change it.

5) Why isn't Fair, Isaac actively working on increasing credit reporting accuracy?

Since the scores are supposed to PREDICT defaults, wouldn't your scores be able to predict a lot better if credit reports weren't so filled with mistakes?

Is it because you do business with the bureaus?

Or does credit data accuracy not matter because the credit scores don't predict, but CAUSE the defaults?

6) And of course, I need your fax number so I can fax you reports as requested by Mr. Quinn.

Barry, I better send this now before I ask another 55 questions. I'm posting this e-mail and your response in the forum, feel free to respond directly there,

Christine

I got a phone call from Barry the next evening, but I was on my way out and didn't have time to talk. Barry promised an e-mailed response the next day, but it's been over a week now - got nothing.

I did get his fax #, and will post in a separate thread about my questions on how COLLECTIONS are scored.

Just got Barry's response:

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: RE: Barry - need more documentation for the Experian suit and have more questions

Hi Christine,

My responses to your questions are as follows:

1. Our Credit Bureau Score Helpline outgoing phone message informs consumers that they can best obtain FICO credit scoring information by visiting www.myfico.com. They can also request the informative booklet, “Understanding Your Credit Score,” which is mailed/faxed to the caller after leaving a name and address/fax#. The outgoing message on this line also provides information on disputing the accuracy of credit information, and then, if all representatives are busy, option three allows the caller to leave a message after which we will return the call within one business day.

2. The myFICO web site FAQ section does not specifically state that “certain types of accounts will LOWER the credit scores, and that INCORRECT coding of inquiries will also LOWER scores as they won't be deduplicated for your scores,” as these concerns: 1) are not entirely factual – certain types of accounts may lower scores slightly while certain types of accounts will, in fact, raise scores; and 2) are best addressed individually, since they usually involve specific situations not occurring frequently enough to include in the FAQ. The best way to get these issues addressed is to click the “Contact Us” button on the myFICO web site and state the specific question or situation. We will respond within one business day.

3. We show no record of having received your email sent via planetfeedback.com. While we diligently respond to email sent directly from consumers to Fair, Isaac, we cannot be responsible for email directed to us via a third party when we show no record of receipt. If you would like to email those questions directly to us via “Contact Us” on the site, we will be happy to answer them.

4. Our email address is info@fairisaac.com.

5. Fair, Isaac fully supports efforts by credit grantors and consumer reporting agencies to increase credit reporting accuracy. A credit score will most accurately reflect one’s true credit standing when the score is calculated on the most accurate information possible. And, as said before, we provide extensive consumer information and tools to monitor one’s credit score, including information on how to investigate the accuracy of credit information being reported.

6. I provided you with my fax number in our phone conversation of 12/6/01, received your fax yesterday, and will contact you by phone to discuss.

Regards,
Barry Paperno
Fair, Isaac Customer Care

Hi Barry, appreciate your reply, and of course I've got some follow-up questions.

Well, I'm glad to finally find out about this. We have e-mailed my posted summary umpteen times back and forth, and NOW you're telling me that's NOT correct?

"Fair Isaac Credit Scoring: Inquiry counts - collections and charge offs, updated 5/01"
http://www.bayhouse.com/credit-foru...t=2523#post1092

Barry, PLEASE tell me what's wrong with that inquiry summary.

Barry, that's the first time I hear THAT.

WHICH inquiries will RAISE scores?

You asked for it, so there you go:

"Posted BAD Equifax - 497 BEACON score - repo judgment - lots of collections - Ch. 7?"
http://www.bayhouse.com/credit-foru...s=&threadid=240

In this thread the ENTIRE credit report is posted. It's one of the worst ones. Inquiries are Reason Factor 4.

1) WHY are the inquiries an important score factor on this report?

2) What does 30310_WJ have to apply for to RAISE his score with an inquiry?

This "contact us" button goes to a form that won't give consumers a copy of what they submit? I just tested it and submitted "Do I get a copy of what I submit here?" We'll see.

And, do you want me to paste that entire credit report in that form?

So, I waited weeks for your response here and I would have had it in a day had I submitted it at your site? Why is that? I'll be sending this mail through through your form.

I will forward your statement to Planetfeedback.com, apparently your are accusing them of NOT sending our letters to Fair, Isaac. Maybe they can change the contact to "info@fairisaac.com."

Actually, I'd rather have the questions mailed through Planetfeedback.com.

Barry, WHY would you rather answer EACH question secretely instead of publishing at a forum like here or Plantetfeedback.com?

Thank you.

WOW, I had NO idea!

How exactly do you do that?

And, followup question:

Why doesn't Fair, Isaac provide a listing of all the data that consumers need to check to ensure it is accurate and DISPUTE if it is not accurate?

Sorry, Barry, that's not a good answer. The proof is in the pudding. Read what you wrote about inquiries. It's like pulling teeth!!!! WHERE is the information? I'm NOT finding it! URLs please!

WHAT tools? Where? I really resent the notion that people have nothing better to do than search your site.

WHERE?

Also, I've heard your long recording on your "consumer help line" giving out the phone numbers for the credit bureaus.

I got news for you: they won't talk to me unless I buy one of their reports.

So, please include a statement in your announcement advising your callers that they need to purchase a credit report before anyone at any CRA will talk to them.

I.e., you don't have cash or credit, there is NO investigation for you!

Barry, as much as I enjoy talking on the phone with you, I really need a WRITTEN explanation of EACH and every piece of data fueling your scores for the collections faxed to you and posted at:

"My fax to Fair, Isaac: HOW are these delinquent accounts scored?"
http://www.bayhouse.com/credit-foru...s=&threadid=243

While I appreciate your sending the info@fairisaac.com e-mail, I'm a little irritated by all the propaganda in your e-mail to me. That might work for the idiots at the FTC and in Congress, but not here. You should know better.

I was asking for Fair Isaac's cooperation and assistance with my efforts to get complete consumer credit reports, specifically with regards to my law suit against Experian.

I'll really appreciate some ANSWERS.

Thanks,

Christine

I'm closing this thread since we're done with THIS suit, apparently the REAL law suit is unavoidable.

Continued at Mr. Quinn's, Fair Isaac, final words -- it must be time for real some law suits!